Tag: raw

thank you [Music] I don't know I'm just gonna throw it out there guys do it see if Murph is watching Murph Jay's got three words for you let's go ranges baby that's four that was four it's all right it counted it counted though the first three are what matter what is up defects back live on a Monday night Jay's here it's we're just we're rolling now I feel like we're on almost every Monday now this is something new you know good to see you guys Big Show planned special guests let's just let's just get right into it but you know before we do that I gotta say one up to my boys Bush what up what up what are you doing what is up guys playoff hockey is upon us being here is brutal right now thank God we don't we aren't live tomorrow night when the ranges are on but excited to be here I think it's a great topic I think it's a topic that has definitely changed over the course of the last year especially so really excited to get into it excited about our guest as always tell them what up I I figured Murphy's not going to be watching because he's too busy watching the game right now so obviously what up defects thank you for stopping by tonight we all know we got playoff hockey so we're all excited about it but we're here with you very excited about tonight's show uh always love when uh the Haas the Haas shows up to the show and hangs out with us so you know he's coming in with some with some uh statistics him and Matt him and Maddie together make like a freaking all of a sudden I feel like I'm unlike the FBI and [ __ ] I see the reflection of the game in in guys uh glass and then tomorrow night when Jay goes live on whatnot if which we're all going to be there if this is still in the background you're gonna just have that on the background Jay or what I mean I think the game should be over by 9 45 but if it's not I'm gonna be pissed off and if I do bad on whatnot I'm really gonna be [ __ ] pissed that'll be the last that'll be the last time oh yeah that'll be the last that'll be the last but you'll you could throw it on behind you people will love it you can still hear it people will watch it I mean come on it's like you got the package set up for it bro I'm one of those guys I could only do one thing at a time and even and even that yep and even that is brutal we love you brother we love you let's get into some with some sponsors Jay a couple perfect games in a row ah let me Let Me Clear My Throat I got too much pressure on me now first up guys the best in the business e-rod 212 Express comic book pressing E-Rock will Blaze your books owning and pressing needs defects 10 gets you ten percent off not only that era broadcast as long as dgc and cbcs so hit him up attention next up everybody's favorite Beaver mutant Beaver comics for all online exclusive variants defects 10 gets you 10 off they ship worldwide that's right worldwide so tell Pat and the b-man the defects sent you almost [ __ ] that one up that was close I felt you just say [ __ ] it I'm gonna end it so I don't [ __ ] up that's it because it's still a perfect game guy Forge is looking super clear tonight did you notice that Jay he is looking clear is is there new equipment in the house guy Forge no this is the same computer I have not brought out the new the new laptop that that uh Maddie Forge you know was the brains behind listen you are looking maybe it's just because it's in the room you are just super crisp right now all right nice I like it I like it Speaking of Chris speaking of crisp guy Ford you want to bring in the guest well listen the guy the guy cuts his hair like us so he should hang out with us that's just my opinion so you know what he goes to the same Barber even though he's across the country um he listen if you ever watch his shows he sits in front of not only some crazy [ __ ] books yeah but the man's got an Emmy behind him okay sure it's true bringing the Haas what's going on welcome my friend thank you so much for uh bringing me back two times in in a month I think right there you go look at that irregular yeah you must be doing something wrong to be honest with you then I'm getting to that uh that number of appearances that no longer matters anymore like the collectibility is dropping off this is true this is true good to have you here brother um just to give people a quick recap of how this you know came to be like just a few days ago um you put out a video I I want to say it was uh what Friday was that a Friday video yes end of the week last week okay had a video that was basically an unboxing of uh awesome book and I'll let people go watch it if they won I don't wanna I don't want to spill all the all the details but the the second half of the video which you you rolled into very very nicely might I add was basically talking about you know Rose you know to simplify it basically raws versus graded and and what's the better buy right now and what's what are what where's the Demand right now and and and why um and I think you kind of gave a really good um insight into you know what 2021 caused you know with raw uh books being essentially at least priced the same as their graded counterparts now whether they sold that way I think a lot of times they did or close to it but almost every like listing you saw if the book was a near mint it was selling for almost like the nine six the nine six price you know and if it was a 7-0 it was selling you know they had it listed four the seven five price you know so it was like you know that's what 2021 did and I mean what was kind of your you know your quick kind of overall conclusion to kind of you're like just it was only you talked about it for about six or seven minutes and and kind of like give us like your kind of wrap up to that video and kind of lead us into where we're gonna talk about tonight yeah for sure I mean I'm glad you you guys wanted to talk about this because like you said you know in my video I only talked about it for a few minutes but I feel like there's so much more to unpack with the topic but my general thoughts going into it were you know a lot of people for whatever reason always kind of pegged me as a guy who was like the champion of the raw comic books even though that's really not The Stance I've ever had it just I happen to have more raws and then over time people would tease me because it's like oh swag you're buying all these graded books and my uh opinion on that was it's like it's not me that all of a sudden wants created books is that the market had changed you know in the last couple years where all of a sudden prices like you said were essentially the same so at a certain point it was like well why would I but before I used to be able to buy the raw book for you know you maybe save a little bit the grading fees and maybe a a little bit of I I don't know what you would want to call it like the the risk that it doesn't actually hit the right fee right and then over time like you said the price is kind of equalized and then at that point it was like oh I might as well just buy the graded book because it's already you know cgc fees are included in this um and now we're kind of just hitting a point where I feel like the demand for raws have started to come up more and a lot of the graded books especi I mean depending on what book you're talking about but especially like you know mid-grade level you know say bronze and silver books like those prices are really really hurting um and in the book that I was unboxing I just kind of had a situation where I was like yeah here here's me buying this raw book that now is way more affordable than my graded book or the graded book equivalent would be for it uh once again so that was kind of what the video was about and and uh to kind of sum it up very very well put together by the way which which most of your stuff is so I'm not really worried about when I go watch your stuff but um awesome book awesome oh yeah thank you yeah yeah and it's nice to have like obviously the two copies that you know that yeah that's that's that was the outcome obviously you wanted a raw copy too and and a slab copy right yeah yeah it was it was just was a it just became a thing where it's like I wanted to upgrade it and also I didn't mind getting a raw cut because like aesthetically you know it just yeah it bothers me when there's like a raw and then a grade and then a raw you know it looks all funky to me so I just wanted I didn't mind getting it so you like symmetry you're saying you know we gotta we you know as companies we gotta have our like I mean look at all our backgrounds you know it's like this is all deliberate you know that means you need an Emmy on for the other side though yeah yeah it happened anytime soon you gotta balance it out um so you know I think so much we've and not really on purpose um but the past two months we've really talked a lot about grading and cgc and some of the mishaps um and again not not the best as you see you know we try to put that out there every time but these things are happening and we have to cover them um and you know this is a conversation that kind of kind of leads to that you know I don't want to say and I know Jay has some some opinions about this so I'm going to throw it to him first but I think there's there is a lot of factors to you know that that are going to support the stance that you know maybe the values aren't equal as far as the dollar value but like you were trying like Mickey you were trying to say that maybe the not the numeric value but the actual value as far as how much is on the bone compared to how much you bought it for and what's your upside versus your you know a slab just being that price and it's not going to move much you know maybe there's other contributing factors to it and we've talked a lot about them on this channel with you know mistrust in some of the grading companies right Jay and and that being a factor as to why some people maybe the slabs aren't as desirable right now what do you think yeah 100 I mean we see what cg3 cgc ncbcs been going through in the last year maybe even longer than that and like we talked about on the show in the past we see you know we see mistakes and we hear about it in the community all being community members and you know um Everybody in the chat being a Community member I mean more mistakes now so than ever uh way longer waiting times no matter what tier you're sending in you're still not getting your books back when you're supposed to in in most cases right um defects books that are getting nine eight that shouldn't get nine eights with visible defects on the book even through the slab so I think in this conversation it it really does come down to the specific book and the specific grade just like Mickey said you know so we'll use examples and and we'll get into that as the show goes on but um me myself I've been leaning I haven't submitted a book in what Matt about a year a year and a half it's been about it's a little over a year for us and the reason being is I haven't bought many grills there's not I pretty much checked everything off my list as a collector I stopped buying so much of everything and just focused on the characters and the books that I wanted um when it comes to Grails listen I'm not going to keep a grill raw any book that's over you know fifteen hundred two thousand dollars I am going to submit to cgc I am going to send it to era to get pressed and cleaned up before that and all that is money um so I you know I'm a little on the fence I I still tend to think slab slabs are gonna fetch the higher dollar amount because it's it's your guaranteed grade right we'll say guaranteed in parentheses so but again man like I watch PJ Morris and morbius and I I get their point man with not slave in any of these books because who knows it depends on the grader is the book really a nine eight is it really a nine six is it really a 5-0 so so I get that but I do send in to like the bigger books to slab as an investment as something to save just in case and we've said this before something happens to me my wife my son they they have an idea what that book could sell for just by pulling it up on eBay but I'm I'm with these guys right now man I'm with more abuse I I'm with PJ I'm with all these other old school role collectors that don't want to submit their books I get it man I I get it um as far as moderns I'm not sending in any moderns to cgc anymore I'm not sending in any more minor Keys um it should this that's how I feel right we'll we'll get into price point yeah go on but yeah I mean you know and I think that is a whole the the slab to not slab is a whole except not that it's a separate conversation but that can be a separate conversation you could have a whole show just on that the reasons why to do one or the other um you know and like Jay said we do have a couple examples to kind of show you know maybe maybe like heat one of the examples is almost like a heat check like what's What's um what's hotter and I know Mickey during your video you kind of mentioned that like what is hot or not necessarily what's selling for more but what is more desirable at this time yeah and then there's another example that I have that is gonna show dollar for dollar um on a I don't want to say a Grail but a major Silver age villain key um so we're gonna we're gonna show those two things off and kind of dive into it now I saw a lot of com I got a lot of DMS and I saw some comments even before the show that people had a lot of um strong feelings about this even before I got slabs will always be more money slabs will always be more money and and while on the surface that's probably a statement I would agree with um I think there's some Nuance to it and I think there's there's a there's a little bit of a deeper dive as to you know again dollar for dollar may be right maybe on that nine eight maybe on those higher grades you're that's always going to be the case but what about you know the lower grade or what about the non-keys or what about you know um you know filler but you know so so that's why I said there's a couple of different examples and there's two specific books that I want to look at now it's hard to do this with um raws versus slab right because with slabs you have a grade scale and you have places to look that up sale for sale with the raw stuff it's it's very hard you almost have to you have to sit there grade the book out yourself and say I think this falls into a 9496 category and then compare it to uh the latest slab on that we can't do that for 12 books here it we would be on for four hours right yeah but the problem with that is especially when you're talking about like a nine six to a nine eight when you're looking at a raw book you may think you have a 9A but that price point from that 9 6 to that nine eight is so significantly different it jumps so high so there's the problem with that and yeah you send it in for that nine eight but when it comes back that nine six is it worth cracking it out so someone does the same thing you do oh maybe I could potentially get the 98 with this you know what I mean and who's to say they won't you might crack open a 9-6 sell to someone they submitted in and then boom there's the 98 and that's the problem with the Grading Company right there what do you got guy he's muted or frozen or something what do you got guy I was frozen I'm sorry I I missed everything you said uh what are you out there on the screen for Super Chat oh for me Supreme love he said thanks for making a list and my NC relaxing he said through rain sleet snow defects will show so I like that I like that little that little kid it always says man the books they look so nice in the mylord dude there's nothing you throw a 5-0 book and a mylar it could look like a NATO you know what I mean but true yeah and and another thing that comes into play is buying and selling raw verse slabs right because if if I'm buying a high grade a high dollar value book online I've been burnt too many times to buy a raw copy man if it's a Grail I'm I'm buying it slab yeah at the end of the day just because it's it it's safer um because you don't know what you know you may get pictures you might get this you might get that but you don't know what's going on on the inside of that book you don't know if there's water that stuff that the camera can't pick up so you know modern's different you buy a modern online you're all right you know you you're buying silver age and maybe even some Bronze Age books online eBay what not Instagram you know you don't know what you're gonna get so that's where I tend to I'll buy a celeb and spend that extra money knowing the guaranteed grade rather than rolling the dice yeah what were you going to say Mickey god well there's so many answers when you're bringing up uh the people who are instantly kind of reacting to the thumbnail and stuff and and I I'd say that I think we'd all agree like in a vacuum of course the graded book is always going to be more expensive I mean just grading fees alone just is always going to make it more expensive but I think what it is is it's like the demand aspect or like how like what's going to be easier to sell and and kind of like Jay what you're saying like there's there's definitely a price point where it's like yeah if it's above like fifteen hundred dollars like grade the book by all means but then when you get into that like it's a 500 book range all of a sudden you're in this weird spot you know if if like let's say there's a you got a 5-0 book that's graded and then you have what looks like a raw 50 book I feel like a lot of people would almost rather buy the raw one for whatever reason like maybe it's a psychological thing or like they just think oh I can just like I can press that one up or like I don't need it in a slab and that one might be easier to sell or be faster to sell now and I think that that's kind of maybe what what at least this conversation is too you know right and it's funny that you said that because I was going to kind of talk about the demand um you know you had said you know going it's taking a step backwards a little bit we had said that you know during 2021 and early 2022 There Was You Know The Raw books you know were were listed equal to the graded and and some of the sales they were really close um and do we do you think it's because because and I think the same goes for now but then the demand for everything was so high yeah and there's less places to look up a raw value than there is obviously a slab value and and it created almost like a frenzy where books were going so fast that you didn't really have time to think is this like am I getting the right price for this raw book you just saw that book somebody told you you had to buy it it looks like it's priced and a lot of new buyers not knowing that uh near mint book is not the same as buying you know uh nine eight or a nine six or even a nine four right technically shouldn't be um but do you think that the supply I mean excuse me the demand is what's really um driving some of these prices raw and slab because you even mentioned that the consolidation of certain grades where we are seeing higher grade books sell for less than lower grade books because at that time maybe just nobody was looking to buy that book maybe one was bought on a buyer now and one was bought on an auction when no one was really looking somebody's I and you showed a a book that a 5-0 sold for like eighty dollars less than it's count like then a 4-0 and not too far apart yeah so I feel like that's got to be demand causing that right yeah I think so for sure I definitely think that the the demand has cooled down so like it's it's uh not like there's any given day like any of these books just depending on who's watching you know could sell lower or higher so like there's just a lot of like volatility in that middle section and then but compared to 2021 and 2022 you know I think there was a point where it's like let's say you had a book that you know the graded version can get you a thousand and and then maybe it was like normal for you to sell the raw for I don't know like 700 bucks right but then all of a sudden I think people just started to kind of get greedy in 2021 when everything was going crazy and you're just sort of thinking to yourself well why would I sell mine for 700 when I know this guy's just gonna send it in to get graded and I'm leaving money on the table you know all of a sudden so that's kind of why I think people were raising those raw Book prices because they just knew that oh if you're just going to get it graded and it's going to double the value like why wouldn't I just sell it for that yeah and I like what you said about the the you know kind of the flip and you know I know some people it's like a bad word but not on this channel you know it's like you know if somebody buys that rule book they think there's more potential for it down the road and and again with an overall dip in the market you know maybe you're buying for a longer term hold maybe you're buying to try to you know maximize your value and I think I I think it was what we just talked about like the lower the higher grade selling for less one week apart this and that is just a result of a a big downward dip in in the market right so a lot of things are coming into play that are causing you know some of these weird prices on on slabs um sprinkle in some some really big missteps this year with with grading companies people's desire to have that that book in a mylar if it's an older book and now you're starting to see a little bit more demand for raw books than graded books which is just gonna naturally cause an increase in price I mean yeah again there's gonna always be those steadfast rules right the nine eights the modern nine eights nine sixes you know certain like books over a thousand dollars you're always going to see that but I mean for me just in the past three months since I've started kind of starting to buy comics again I've been paying attention to a lot more auctions of books that don't necessarily have anything to do with news or keys or anything like that and what I've been seeing is you know those lower grade Silver age books that aren't necessarily that expensive you know a four or five you know in this book in a four or five sells for seventy dollars but a raw four to five oh you know 4050 is selling for 90.

and and I've seen that my own personal experience and I've seen it over and over again and I think it's a reason it's it's because of all the reasons we've been talking about so I don't have a specific example it's just I have been seeing this time and time again over the last few months have you guys noticed something like that as well I mean because I I keep seeing it happen and it's kind of sometimes it doesn't Shock Me A lot of times it is because I'm like that's not really like a filler book like that's kind of like a book that I could see people having in that grade but obviously not to these group of buyers they'd rather have it for more money in a slab I mean in a mylar totally do you think there's like a is it like there's always the like I've kind of said it in jest in my video but it's like if my book is raw and I know it's a VG there's always like in my mind like well maybe it's a 5-0 right you know versus like when it has the number on it I know this is the number and like good point I don't know so do you think that there's like a weird collector psychology that's kind of coming into play these days even with the number on it is it really the number right that's what yeah yeah good point I don't know yeah I'm just a piggyback you Jay that's all yeah no and I like what Roy said in the in the chat and supreme said something that I I'm gonna disagree with that you know these graders are human and everybody makes a mistake and listen I get that but when it comes to money and collectibles and you're paying top dollar to have these books graded you're paying top dollar to get your books pressed and cleaned before all this happens I don't want to hear it's a mistake and I think it's a combination of people maybe smartening up with money a little bit and losing faith in these grading companies listen people aren't blind that cgc got so many artists coming in and they're so distracted by this and there's private signings and I get it listen me and Matt spoke earlier today and Matt said it if you live somewhere where there's not big cons where you can't get these books signed it it gives collectors a great opportunity to send your books in to get them signed but it seems like cgc pushes everything to the back burner for these signatures now I mean they're having kit Harrington there they're having the girl from Hawk like this it got to stop at some point focus on what what you're there for to grade books right I don't want to hear oh we made a mistake no I don't want to hear that because they don't refund you in any way yeah they really don't make things right and we've heard I have a horror story that we're going to talk about in a little bit um the person happens to be in litigation with cgc and we can't talk about it right now but when that's all said and done we're gonna talk about it and it has to do with them losing books and it and it's a disaster man like listen I don't want a mistake and if and if my book is I think it's a nine eight and they bring it back a nine two and nine four or even a nine six and there's no notes [ __ ] that I want to know why this book didn't hit that 9 8 at least give me that respect you know what I mean yeah so it's not even about respect you deserve to know you're paying right exactly yeah 100 you're paying for it take take respect out of the equation you're paying for a service so when you pay for something you expect the service in return especially if it's like like I think of like Amazing Spider-Man 300 like the price between a nine eight and a nine six is like yeah thousands of dollars right so like and you sent it in like you you need that explanation like why is you know yeah correct what do you got there and I just think I think overall is collectors and now you know everybody being in the community and being in a Facebook group or being on Instagram and seeing all these mistakes that are being made I think people are starting to lose faith in cgc and greater books and I think that's another main reason why people are gravitating towards raw copies if you get your hands on the raw then you can take your time and you have it and maybe when things get fixed or things get better you can send it in so that's another reason why they're gonna they're gonna grab them now while they can and then this way they have them in their hands in their possession but Dave Cerrone is yelling out and wants some Eva for swaggle house he said King of the charts and grass so give them a little Eva hey that defects guess who's back for some more Super chats yeah baby let's go defects let's go defects it's either going to terrificon possibly wow possibly he couldn't even say that with a straight face there could there could be something in the works yeah you never know oh spoilers all right I never know you never know that's all we'll say all right let's look at a little bit of data there's I didn't want to get too crazy with the detail on this because it is a little hard to work at so we're gonna give two specific examples where's that low Super Chat very good yeah he comes in a perfect timing look comes in perfect timing no like whatever he's always lurking he's got us on in the background while he's flipping through about 10 000 books at a time so let me bring so one book that came to mind that's been hot so it kind of doesn't give an excuse right it's a hot book so it kind of levels the playing field there's Kanan number six right we all know that's been in the news right for for uh one reason or another and I think that's that started around I think April 6th or 7th I think that's when the trailer came out so I tried to kind of look up uh I want to look up some raw copies so let me share my screen if I can [ __ ] do this share screen Chrome tab there we go okay now we could just bring it up all right so I wanted to bring it back to around the seventh and again I'm not you know some of these are best offer so it's not I guarantee that this this second one here sold for 120 but let's just assume it was close right so obviously this news I'm trying to get to the first raw copy this is right okay so right around here you have this 85 dollar sale for a very fine near mint you guys can still see me right yeah all right then we have this 140 Plus you know best offer obviously let's just assume it's somewhere between 125 and 130 for this this near mint book right on that first the first day um you know if I just kind of scroll up 115 120 100 let's go back to the first page sorry about that my screen's skipping a little bit uh let me bring it to the bottom for whatever reason my screen is not cooperating here we go it's kind of skip over the raws for now uh I mean the slabs for now you know this was an 80 copy near mint so that was a really good deal I would say 90 uh 80.

Back in the 80s now we're getting back up to the 117s you know we're back on the rise right 81 uh this was 175 uh best offer so that's I mean even if it was 140 that's still a definite jump this was 140 best offer so to me I mean you know this was a little lower that I look I think I looked at that earlier I had a spine tick this was like a VF near Main copy this 85.

basically anything near mint you can see this 160 for a raw wow you gotta assume that's near mint or better um you know you're you're over a hundred thirty dollars for these near mints and and that kind of the price was kind of set and it kind of just stuck around again this was an 88 book I looked at it had a spine tick uh 147. anything with no spine ticks was you know right in this 110 115 range to like 130 140 range right you'd see another one sold just under 140.

um so it's hard to you're not gonna really take a nine eight and say like Oh look The 98 is cheaper that's that's not what you're gonna see here right it's just this is a book that kind of has held its value for the last three years um but I wanted to just look at it compared to as far as the heat check like clearly a book sold today 145 Dollars near a minute so that that near mint price for raws is really holding strong right um so let's go over to the GPA for the 98 okay it seems like it seems I can get a better deal on on uh some other platforms other than eBay yeah I mean it's possible I'm just saying we're we're just saying can you see that this GPA you guys able to see that not yet can't see it okay hold on I should probably turn it on right there you go so GPA 9A Kanan number six um right here is when those 9 8 started selling and you can see 500 549 500.

okay those first two nine eight sales right after the news down to 450 down to 400 down to 388 jumps back up a little bit and then level is starting to level back down again 425. okay so not a ton of sales I mean it's a decent amount of sales one two three four five six seven eight eight nine eight sales in the last 10 days I mean it's not a cheap book right I mean it's strong right I mean if you look at the March 30th price let's just say let's assume that these people kind of knew something was happening right buying up these nine eights um but if this three you know this four to this 350 to 400 price range in this past month or two you know that's where where the price was so even at this later price we're obviously still above that but to me this does I mean to go from 549 to drop to 425 in less than 10 days while the raws have remained if anything have gone up you know I think the demand and again we're not talking dollar for a dollar we're talking right now in this instance Raw versus slab we're talking demand and where the value is it it looks like for this book it's people are looking for that raw book and that near me copy is still on the rise yeah I I think it may be it's just people because obviously if you can buy the book for 150 with the potential to get the nine eight I think people just would rather do that like just they just just the demand to be like you know what why am I gonna I do I really need to guarantee myself a 9 8 and spend 250 extra dollars I just think a lot of people kind of like I think what Jay you said earlier were just people just being more cautious with how they wanna do this you know I think that that's what you're seeing so people are like I'd rather just buy the raw and assume it's going to be a 9-8 or go for the nine eight or send it in and hopefully it hits and now especially with this book this book's going to be an all-time high um right you know everybody's buying up at the news I think yeah you know is the book gonna come down I think so so why invest whatever that was 569 and buy it at an all-time high when you could roll the dice and buy a raw copy and potentially get that 98 especially with a newer book like that you know but then there's other stuff going on eulers thanks for the shout out dude because I sold Oilers one of these books and he got a 9-8 on that from an old YouTube auction so thanks for that shout out dude nice um another thing man is don't forget now guys cgc is starting to give books purple labels for cleaning and pressing so that's something you gotta be on the lookout for too that's gonna change the game for a lot of people you know what I mean especially if they're hitting you with a purple label for a cleaning service that's you know we got to talk about that that's something like yeah another show but we gotta address that yeah and real quick some old school collectors like that they don't like the idea of a clean and oppressed they think they consider it restoration do I no I I don't but some people do and you gotta respect everybody's opinion on it and just like great adverse raw you got to respect everybody's opinion on it right if you look at a A Fantastic Four number five a first Doom whether someone has it raw or slab that's still a [ __ ] fantastic book man you know what I mean so I just think people are getting a little more hip to the game when it comes to cgc and you know reading the backlash and the horror story so I think that plays a big part in this too I wanted to give one more example because again you know people were immediately jumping saying the raw book is always going to be worth more I mean the the slab book is always going to be worth more and I found an example and again this wasn't hard to find it's not like I had to look forever to find this um an example of a pretty pretty big book I think um so Silver Surfer number three and this book I picked for a reason and maybe you'll see later on why but I'm not going to explain why right now um so this Silver age major villain key okay in a lower grade um sold for 3.95 best offer I looked it up it actually went for 365.

Okay um and let's look I don't know if I'm going to be able to show I'm gonna I'm gonna zoom in a little bit and then I'm gonna try to bring up a whole book let me see what that looks like I'm gonna have to use the magnifying glass a little bit so this corner can you guys kind of see that yep you know that spidering you know I'm just gonna go slow to me this looks like the back is pretty clean I mean to me this looks like somewhere between a four and a five probably five is on the very high side but if you just say if you just say maybe like a four or five just because of this corner here and The Tear at the top um but even if you want to go high and you want to say five I mean am I in the ballpark yeah I was gonna say a four right off the bat as soon as you started showing I was gonna say about a four but but you know what I'll even give the benefit of that and let's let's just say it's a five okay um now I wanted to see what a four or a five was selling for in a graded copy so remember this was 360.

This book which it's not like it had like a hidden defect that somebody can see these are like right in front this guy had a lot of pictures uh of every corner like you can really and this was I want to say it was best offer okay so again you're not under the gun to uh you know the auctions running down maybe you bid too much and then have that buyer's remorse this is a book that has been sitting out there okay so I want to go to GPA real quick and this will kind of be the last example of this but I had to I had to bring up something just to kind of say are we on to something here uh let me share it with you guys okay so right off the bat let's just say it's a five which again I think that's a little high last sale this month 380. okay um and let's just say it is a four last sale last month not too long ago 340. this raw book at 360. is I by all metrics is basically equivalent or more you're paying more by the time I mean you're paying more for it essentially for a raw book and you would that same book and it slabbed and it's in its slapped form um and this isn't like a tiny book this isn't like a book that nobody's gonna buy in that grade I mean there's been five five sales this year I mean excuse me there's been five five oh sales in this in this book this year that's I mean it's a lot of that's a lot for you know a 1968 you know for one grade it's been four months I mean that's you know in a book that it's not like it's super hot for any reason right now so I mean this is you know maybe it's the exception but this exception didn't take me more than five minutes to find so I feel like this is happening more than people realize expect more downward Trends on this book now that they're gonna [ __ ] gender swap my fist though so expect that book to come crashing down soon well Danner right that and that's the question was it an outlier and we could sit here for hours and look at every raw book and try to grade it out but again this this was literally the first rule book I found it's not like I cherry-picked it you know and I mean we can if you want I guess we could sit here and look for the next raw cell I mean I just want to take a quick look see if anything stands out so that's a good point too because that could be how many sellers does how many you know followers does the seller on eBay had what did he post it as exactly you know what I mean I think a lot of that comes into fact there too yeah I mean that one didn't it just said c I think it said c picks for the uh for for um for Whatchamacallit for condition right it's not like he was just I said if anything he showed every single defect it's not like you were he was getting one picture that maybe somebody didn't look close enough at he showed every picture so here I'm going to show you another one I mean this is actually this is even in a better example um just because that and appreciate you Dan Hart coming coming into the whatnot sale the other night uh where is it where is it let me get rid of that one uh but yeah no that was a good question and actually I'm glad that you made me look at this uh uh stick with me for a second there it there it is share that up okay so this was an election so different style this is an auction um 368 dollars so right in that same price range I want to say that this book is slightly nicer but it has a spine split all right you can't really see from that but that has a spine split right and a decent one um some some spine issues for sure you know that bottom corner is is not as bad as the other one um you definitely that's you know that's worse than the other book that that little Mark right there but that spine split you know one inch spine split you know you have that uh right in the v there you have uh that that cut right in the v or that slice that's that's color breaking um this looks like it presents nicer though it definitely presents better but I would say again though this is probably a Max 5-0 because you have a spine split that's at least an inch um now maybe not as many people know about that you can see that that bottom corner is chewed up you know but maybe not as many people know about a spine split like kind of wrapping your grade but I mean even if you want to say this is a 5'5 right like Max you know so the five fives you know the 5-0 selling for 380.

you know so it's like that they're still very very close right like so you have to assume someone would want to pay to press it and then send it in and do that so whatever that fee is on top you know so it's pretty close oh yeah I mean the great is if you're if you don't know someone and you're saying it let's say you're sending in a single book if you're sending in a single book graded clean pressed to an outside party and then shipped to cgc created that's a minimum and at this price point Silver age I'm just doing some round numbers shipping both way like you're looking at 90 to 100 dollars well unless for everything let's use an Express CBP which you have a discount code just throwing it out there you know so automatically that 360 turns to you know 460. so and again I know not everybody bidding on eBay is going to have that same knowledge of the spine split is thinking of the cleaning and pressing and the grating but again this is the the second book I found right if that second book that I found like is literally the second world sale on this book if that was the second book I found and it went for like two 260 I would say sure then then yeah maybe maybe it's just an anecdotal it's it's a single instance it's the it's the exception again I do think that moreover the slabs are going to sell more but I think you know in certain instances and it's becoming more apparent even in my eyes that the the the raw books are selling for equivalent if not even a few dollars more of their raw counterparts depending on like Jay said earlier depending on the grade depending on the book depending on the error so and guy could you throw up Fizzy's comment real quick because I I like that that's a great comment bottom line is who do you trust more do you trust C uh cgc cbcs more or some Rando on eBay who mindlessly props near mint in their listing title and that and that's a great Point dude and that ex that's exactly why I said in the beginning of the show if I'm buying a high priced book like ss3 um online from eBay from whatnot from Instagram whatever the case may be I gotta buy that book slap just for that reason alone so you're absolutely right when it comes down to that I do trust cgc and cbcs more than some dude posting it up on on eBay or whatever selling platform they're selling it on so I I'm gonna pose one more question to you guys and you just take take over and then we'll move on we'll talk about the Jonathan Majors thing but you know we can sit here and say bad buyer you know misrepresentation somebody overbid it somebody didn't realize that didn't think about the grading and this and that but at the end of the day doesn't that sale still count and doesn't it still set a price point doesn't it still affect the next sale like obviously when it's egregious people just throw it away but Mickey I mean it's it's still it's gonna like if you're looking at that and you see that that book sold for this price aren't you gonna still enter you know put that into your equation of what you should pay for the book 100 it totally counts you know and and I think you know you didn't pull up all of it but even when you were kind of saying like just just in peer it just is empirically true you know because I I agree with you it's we could talk about SilverStar for three but I bet if you pulled up Thor 165 out of Morlock you know you'd see the same types of things going on or if you pulled up like the Wonder first Wonder Man book you know you'd see this it's a lot of these types of you know they're big keys but they're it's not like an ASM one you know like a case point it's like ASM one shirt like you know that that's gonna be different but a lot of these types of things it happens a lot you know and and we're seeing it repeat itself again and again what do you think Jay final word yeah I mean I I pretty much you know spoke my piece on it um uh dependent on the book right just like make said is it is it a big key yeah it's a big key is it a Grail no it's not a grill um I think at the end of the day it all comes down to the buyer and the collector and and and what they want for their I do see a push and raw books being more uh more in demand now you know especially you know coming from King Khan and going more you know you see more people all the time buying these books raw and whether they're submitting or not but it's definitely you know cgc and cbcs they are a million you know big big companies but they are definitely catching backlash from collectors in the community without a doubt without a doubt I mean NJ without just just to kind of put like just an extra piece of evidence in there and again this is this is just our personal experience this is just what we're seeing you know like we've made it clear that we still think that you know slab books overall are going to be more valuable but again we're talking about demand which you know it's more than just a dollar right but Jay without saying any names without saying what book it was without saying the grade or anything like that didn't we just have a conversation with someone that said maybe I should just break out that book and sell it wrong because I'll probably get more money for it yeah 100 yeah you know so this is how right like so I don't know um it's an interesting conversation and as soon as I watched the video that Mickey did and if you guys want to check it out his link is in the description um it just so many ideas like it kind of brought to kind of to the Forefront what I had been seeing these past three few weeks you know just perusing eBay perusing whatnot you know just and and saying to myself I can't believe that raw book just sold more than what I just looked up a 5-0 to go for and I know this book isn't a 5-all you know like so I don't know I think it's an interesting conversation I saw a lot of good comments on there unfortunately there's four of us we I wanted to address every single one but then we'd be here for three hours and yep we can't do it we'd love to but um but don't go anywhere we're not done yet we still have more to talk about after we talk about a couple whatnot shows coming up uh Jay you selling tomorrow night brother yeah I am popping my cherry it's like I said every show for the last three weeks since we announced this I'm officially selling my soul officially tomorrow um YouTube just wasn't working dude I guess this is this is just the only way right now we'll check it out um I won't be selling a lot on there but I'll definitely be selling some cool books that I know are probably gonna go for a lot lower than I'm expecting get your deals it's a good time right it's getting books to you guys in the community everybody's winning I'm making a little bit of money maybe you're getting books you like we're gonna have a good time we'll all be up there chatting like a show so it is what it is right now right let's go that's it yeah Jay's going tomorrow night 9 45 we start off with e-rod seven o'clock at 8 30.

do you hear me I think my earbud died Mickey can you hear me yeah I can still hear you okay so both of you both here yeah it's just Jay then um yeah Jay goes on 9 45 tomorrow night e-rod first at seven very Gary at 8 30 and then we're starting at 9 45 probably go till about uh 10 30 10 45. a couple giveaways gonna be in there and like we said if you haven't been there yet it's all three of us hanging out just like here on YouTube so it's like a little mini show on whatnot we talk about whatever happened there will be something that seems to something that happens either Monday night or Tuesday morning and it's always after our show so we so we've been talking about that on whatnot as well so it's like you get like an extra show um and maybe you buy some books so links in the description even if you're not buying just come hang out with us it's something we can like we said we're giving books away we're bullshitting with you guys so it's more than just selling the books so the defects you're doing another show on another day just come by I mean it's I mean it's content maybe it's kind of what do you ask for that's it so be Supreme love a supreme love I think I still have that Thor 166.

I still have that Maddie right yeah I think so yes you do I think I do you want to DM me you have Instagram DM me there you go sliding that slide in that DM brother um the um so yeah what up thorough in the chat yeah um look at the shirt Link's in the description and the QR codes on the screen look at the shirt keep it thorough baby how did you know to wear that thank you Cog CLG in the house CLG we're gonna be talking about we're gonna be talking about CLG next week we just didn't have enough time this week but we got clg's got some we've mentioned it before on this channel but we got a giveaway for you guys next week so I'll just tease that and we'll leave it at that but make sure you're tuned in next week on YouTube because we got a nice giveaway and if you want a giveaway Jay's doing two [ __ ] awesome giveaways tomorrow and I was like you're giving those books away yeah Jay's in the chat because his earbuds died I don't know if he's gonna jump back in or he's done but we quickly just wanted to talk so tomorrow night what not 9 45 come hang out bookmark the shows that helps us out a lot links in the description or QR code on the screen tell us about the last thing we're going to talk about here well I mean this is just funny I I I obviously it was in the news there's some big chat big channels I mean we're like we're like this we're like this I mean there's some big channels throwing some videos up there about and uh Canyons having some you see what I did there with the words Kang is having some Majors issues we saw this with the ads got him you know got him that's all um I mean guys do you does this hold any I mean how about this I go to my cousin Vinnie does the defensive case hold water so um speaking on the hot mic podcast Insider Jeff Schneider I've heard his name before uh and I've seen I've read this I read this too so go ahead I'm excited for it um brought up uh the cat uh Idris okay and that's that um damson Idris who is set to play opposite Brad Brad Pitt in Apple's upcoming movie set in the world of formula one here's the quote here's here's one I wanted to talk about did you see who got cast in the Brad Pitt racing movie question mark Dame damson address and if you don't know where that is he's from snowfall uh actually I really like that show I think he's from and he says I think he's from snowfall and that's and so that's like a big part right that is the the young hot shot racer opposite Brad put Brad Pitt in this 150 to 200 million dollar racing movie that is a big deal that he got that he noted that the young Talent would be the kind of the kind of actor the studio is looking at if Jonathan Majors gets the boot as Kang and again quote even though there hasn't been any movement on the Jonathan Majors front I've heard that that's the kind of actor who like who like if Jonathan Majors got the Buddhas Kevin someone like damson Idris is the type of person that Marvel may look at to replace him so they literally said they want a devs and Idris like actor swag what the [ __ ] I mean is that that just seems like we want the young gonna be influential in Hollywood for the next 10 years actor right and I want the butcher-esque to be the third defect I wanna I wanna God forbid something that happens yeah yeah what did yeah it's interesting stories like does Disney see these like tests yeah how would fans react to this if we if we recast well yeah before you cut out into Jake can you hear us yeah yeah I'm good I'm good I know I know you wanted to talk I know you had like we have a little bit of a difference in opinion on this so go first just in case you get cut off again but tell me what do you think about this because I know you threw something in the chat I know this was coming from off the Jump I [ __ ] this the mouse don't play dude they're not gonna have a dude that allegedly you know involved in a domestic violence incident and whether it disappears or not they always disappear look at the NFL look at all look look at Sports in general these always disappear because the victim gets paid off in whatever the case may be Disney don't want to be associated with any type of domestic violence especially nowadays and think about all the money they're saving now but an actor that's not as big as Jonathan Majors um I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner I'm surprised it didn't happen when the news dropped but I guess they had to get their lawyers involved and see where they go from there and that's it and you know if if you've been following it whether it's on IG or in the news more people are coming forward that work with this guy's majors and said he has violent tendencies so before anything else bad happens right like Ezra Miller I just seen Lord Brooklyn put it in listen they stuck with Ezra right I mean and that dude allegedly held people hostage but who knows but too much money on the line yeah that's why exactly way too much money on the line I mean I like I like you know I haven't seen Ant-Man 3 yet so I can't tell you my opinion on Jonathan majors portrayal of Kang but I like Kang the Conqueror and if these kids get a step up to do a good job then there you go if there's not going to be any backlash or Disney you know what I mean if there's not gonna be a bunch of protesters outside with nothing better to do than protest a Marvel movie because of domestic violence they don't want that headache so Jay on a positive note I don't know if this was meant for you or not I was dying you want to just read that out loud oh there you go I like it um yeah man I you know they they don't want to be exactly and like Roy says is there any I mean there's people that still go out I'm excited for Guardians three it's gonna be the first movie I go see in the theaters in a in a long long time it's gonna be a fun night Cinco de Mayo think of the last Marvel movie we saw in the theaters um no we saw we saw DC movie in the theaters yeah we saw Batman um I couldn't even tell you the list oh wow Shang Chi we want and we both fell asleep yeah oh yeah yeah the second time I watched that on Disney plus I I liked it I did too you know what I mean um yeah so yeah you know Disney's not playing man you know they're good I don't know man see this is like me and Jay are on the opposite side we have been since the beginning we've got a little side back going honestly I think what like what SWAG said now I'm not saying that he won't get fired because if I think if more comes out or he does you know if the if the case goes 40 does go to trial then it's a different story my thing is I don't think it's gonna get that far I think what's Happening Here is they're definitely testing the waters like swag side but I also think they're also doing cover fire let's say they put this out and and the evidence has already come the the stronger evidence is on the opposite side so far they've all let like the last two weeks all you've seen is all this evidence being put out there in the news and I'll say evidence about how it it wasn't him he didn't do anything the girlfriend's text messages this thing and that thing that that's by design of course so but Disney now has kind of like a look we would have done this if something happened we covered our ass like if this if if this guy was guilty or we felt like he was guilty or it did go to trial we were actively looking for a replacement already so don't don't yell at us I really think this is just more cover they're still waiting to see what's actually going to happen I think if everything That Remains the Same as it is today let's say nothing changes nothing happens this doesn't go anywhere no new evidence you're not going to hear a word about this it's just gonna die off yeah this goes to trial that's a different story if honestly I don't even think it's going to make it that far but it is New York it's a little like if this happened in a different state you know this would be a slam dunk not going to trial New York's they're a little harsher with with the you know domestic abuse so we'll see I mean it'll be interesting I I don't think you're going to see anything happen anytime soon but like if a cell phone video comes out of him him beating him then it's game over so so if you're saying if they were in all of [ __ ] Bama and they killed a good old boy there is no way that this is not going to try it right for that's this equivalent of this yeah to be honest with you I don't even think this goes to trial yeah it can't it can't go to trial if you don't have a uh well we'll say a victim or someone alleging something to begin with and yes he did he did make the 9-1-1 call but you know how Disney is guys it's it's it's a very very mindful liberal company and they want to protect themselves say they don't fire him and something else happens which you never know could and do I feel bad for the guy if it's not his fault yeah absolutely but we all know this is how Disney functions man we it was it was how they functioned but now that they're losing money is it still how they function so that's going to be what's interesting this is a big play right here that's a big play and it's going to be it's going to be crazy to see what they're gonna do with it honestly I don't I don't think he goes anywhere if you don't hear any more about it I agree with Matt and who knows who knows what goes on behind the scenes with Disney they could be they could have been looking to out this guy before it happened he could have had problems maybe more creative references and they're like oh now we got our option to get rid of this guy we we don't we don't know but what what do you think Mickey well yeah I mean like Jay was saying you know you think not that Majors his case is at this level yet but like if you compare Ezra Miller it seems like Warner Brothers is willing to like stick with it versus like Johnny Depp Pirates of the Caribbean Disney brand it was like all right get this guy out like as soon as the the thing came out so Disney I think does have a shorter leash probably when it comes to this type of stuff which is crazy which I'm not to interrupt you I'm sorry but yeah which is crazy which is crazy to me because of Johnny Depp and how big Johnny [ __ ] Depp is yeah okay that that that's an enormous enormous and he he is that franchise no matter how you no matter how you cut it he is that Pirates of the Caribbean franchise and they're [ __ ] for what they did to him well and go ahead Mickey You're I'll let you finish because I'm probably gonna say what I was going to say well go ahead go ahead no no it just and my last little point will be I think it'll be interesting because they probably need to make the decision by Loki right like when we get a Loki trailer will he be in it you know just said in the chat will he be in it we'll know then we'll know before then yeah yeah that's a good point but is but I mean you guys brought up um Johnny Depp and just take it a step further is he the reason why they won't jump the gun this time because they clearly [ __ ] up with him they fired him and and crossed themselves a billion dollars because that's what that movie would have brought the next one it would have brought a million dollars a billion dollars and they cost themselves that because they just jumped the gun yeah I mean clearly there was some stuff there but all of the allegation as to really why they fired him all turned out to as far as we could see in court were false and listen my dog my dog stepped on a Beat what listen at the end of the day Disney doesn't give a [ __ ] about any of these actors they don't give a [ __ ] about fighting that's true if this guy continues to do what he's doing he's out they they have no lawyer none of these companies have loyalty to anybody so don't don't be surprised all they see is dollar signs it's just like they really do have oh sorry I was just gonna say and they really do have the easiest creative out compared to any of these other actors and all that stuff for sure yeah sure it this is a tough one though this isn't like an actor like that nobody knows or an actor on his way like kind of in the Twilight of his career this is a this is an actor that is literally breaking out in front of our eyes yep true right so like this is this is Disney's not gonna just wave a magic wand at this one like they have to be sure because of what happened with Depp what's happening with their bottom line the fact that the [ __ ] whole entire Saga is based around this guy this [ __ ] guy based on what's happening with Ezra Miller like they are this is literally on the their top of their desk every single day trying to figure out what's the best move they're not gonna just they're not gonna just say [ __ ] it and we'll deal with the consequences either way they're definitely not going to dismiss him lightly I'm not saying that they're definitely not going to dismiss them but this isn't just like you know what let's save face get rid of this guy and whatever it is it is like they can't afford to do that right now they are not in the position to be able to do that yeah because think think of all the other stuff that comes along with that toys right yeah merchandise yeah his likeness and all that exactly it's it's this this guy was set to this guy was said to be the next biggest [ __ ] actor dude yeah she still might be yeah he still might be but you know it's it's Disney's viewers and their perception of someone which is which isn't fair to him and just like it wasn't fair to Johnny Depp but listen I I have no faith in Disney and you guys know that who watch this channel so wait is it sorry jay no no go ahead if you guys are Robert Iger what would you do assuming like you've heard different things and you you're just you're clearly you don't know but what would you do right now innocent until proven guilty that's that's my opinion that's how it used to be right yeah that's the law isn't it no it is the law but can they wait that long with all this hinder teetering on it I'll go to jail on this Mr I am the Lord I don't know that's tough that's that's a really Jay makes a really good point because if they wait too long if you go too far down the rabbit hole I mean right now is the perfect time because if you didn't see Ant-Man spoiler alert three two one John the majors character we don't know what happened to him maybe he died maybe he did it maybe got sucked back into a different realm we have no [ __ ] clue but they could easily say he went away and it changed the face of every Kang variant I mean it's literally built into being the decision being made right [ __ ] now and that's what makes that's the problem with the easiest out they have the easiest out they always do they had it before problems like this with the Multiverse oh this is [ __ ] up let's just blame it on the Multiverse that's a lost my interest you know what I mean give me a character and let him stick around from this universe don't give me all these other guys and multiple oh [ __ ] a supreme love I got I gotta I gotta I know I know just said something too a supreme love yeah he's saying the projections are low but we'll see Mike Tyson for Kang all day it's in the Multiverse I gotta follow him I gotta follow him through the through the strategy all right guys I think we're gonna wrap it up you guys have anything else to add before we get out of here everybody what do you got going tell us you know I'm Mickey I know your your Kickstarter just wrapped up yeah you just wrapped up with the kickstarter uh give us a quick uh how did it go how was the experience yeah it was great uh you know last time I was on the show you know you guys helped me out and got the word out which I really really appreciate and we we hit our goal and so you know there's no turning back now now I gotta deliver and so I'm working on that so it's it's really exciting and and yeah I can't wait to to get the book out to everybody so and you want to you want to officially uh tell the people where you're gonna be in the next couple of months uh well tomorrow I'm going to be going to uh a what what not auction right the principal defect what not one oh look at that I'll be there right and then uh yeah I'll be at uh I'll be going to terrificon I think hopefully we all get to meet up in person for the very first time so that's that's definitely yeah I don't know if that's gonna be good for you but okay start taking your milk thistle now everybody buy stock in uh in uh Pedialyte I'll tell you that I love the rose comment I think Standalone films by Marvel and DC are the way to go so do I dude it's like a reading a One-Shot comic and you could do everything doesn't have to be intertwined I don't understand why they get this concept that every I I get why they do it a standalone movie dude would be awesome like I'd rather uh uh and not from Disney I'm not gonna say Disney but I'd rather a standalone Punisher movie I'd rather a standalone Daredevil movie like movies used to be then everything tied in and then you got to worry about this and that so great but but do they have to be absolutely Standalone I mean the model that worked in phase one two and three I mean those movies while they were intertwined they didn't necessarily feel like it until the end and if and if there was it was like one single point of the movie yeah that only a hand only a certain percentage of the audience actually understood that there was a connection that model worked it was proven right I mean they were putting the Avengers together to fight you know basically a common phone damn it Thanos in The Infinity Gauntlet but it worked but it's not working now it's not well I I feel like they've amped it up and right past the point of where it worked I mean why not a standalone movie every once in a while agree you know what I agree I mean still in the same universe there's still going to be that connection no matter what but like why you don't have to make it be like where does this fit in like you just said like a standalone Punisher yeah it doesn't necessarily have to fit into what they're doing right now I would definitely like to see that I feel like they probably should have done that was just the Standalone thing and then throw in the hey there's cap Shield Easter egg you know yeah in The Shield building that they walk into you know Chad Chad makes a good point he said the single greatest thing done in cinematic history there's 23 movies culminating with the last two it was epic and would probably never be done again and that's the problem so we're trying to looking like it yeah they're trying they're trying to yeah yeah they're trying to do it you're trying to recreate awesomeness like and you know what maybe you can and DC does it look at Batman you just get a Batman movie you know what I'm saying that's totally separate from everything else that's it just don't leave celestials in the ocean I think that's something you know just just like have smaller scale third act fights oh yeah seriously listen this is this is see like we're getting into a topic now another topic that we could talk about for hours and hours and hours but hopefully in two weeks we have good news well it would be yeah it would be two shows from now that maybe maybe Guardians changes things a little bit we'll see we'll see we'll talk about that next Monday but uh I think we're gonna get out of here this was a really great show Mickey swag I really appreciate you number one loaning us or giving us the the starter fluid to get to continue this conversation that you started uh make sure you guys are you subbed up the swag make sure you're watching his videos the link is in the description and I really appreciate you coming on here with us yeah thank you so much for having me on it was a lot of fun Jay guy appreciate you boys as always see you guys tomorrow night see you in the chat if you're going to be hanging with us and whatnot tomorrow night we're going to do a little bit more discussion while we sell some books all three of us so come come hang out all right boys and girls appreciate your defects we'll see you tonight if not

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